Question about /rule 6 on RED

Discussion in 'Issues & Reports' started by Wille, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. Wille

    Wille Member

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    Recently there was a case between Jeffstinsons and Mattisbak. I wasn't involved and I might not have all the info, but from what Jeff said in chat, from what I hear is that the interpretation of the rule had changed from how it was treated in the past.

    from what Jeff told me, Mattisbak and Jeff were trading a commandblock protX for an invis cloak or 5 stacks of db, and that mattisbak told jeff it was worth 5 stacks of db.
    and because the interpretation of the market by staff, they considered this a scam ?????? and not only rolled back the trade on mattisbak but gave him punishment.

    so in summary, mattisbak was punished for highballing during a trade. by this logic half of red and definitely myself should be permabanned by now

    in the past the /rule 6 about no scamming during trades was only interpreted as meaning that you cannot tpkill or pvp kill someone when you were telling them it was a trade. not for charging them a bad price or even telling them possibly incorrect subjective values of items, which in this case wasnt even true, commandblock protX rares are many, but mattisbak was currently the only one selling it to my knowledge. I would personally value them at 2 stacks, 5 seems high, but since he was the only one selling it he could have asked whatever he wanted honestly. the market is supply and demand and prices are subjective. to say he scammed and then punish him is ridiculous.

    I just lowballed someone for a player tracker, only paid them one stack of db when it was worth 3 stacks easily. should I be punished?
     
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  2. TheSarchasm

    TheSarchasm Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Hi there,

    Asking for a higher price on an item than it's worth is fine. If you say you'll only sell your most prize block of blue wool for 20 diamond blocks, that's your choice. You're also welcome to offer someone whatever you want on a trade, even if the price you're offering is lower than the value of the item.

    You aren't allowed to knowingly and purposefully misrepresent the value, rarity, or properties of an item in order to sell it. Claiming that something is one-of-a-kind/incredibly rare, that it has properties that it doesn't, or stating that an official valuation was provided by a staff member when it wasn't, wouldn't be allowed. Trades that rely on misinformation have been reversed periodically when staff looks over the provided logs and determines that someone knowingly misrepresented the value or rarity of an item with the express intention of screwing someone over.

    So as long as you aren't doing that- lying, on purpose, with the express intent of cheating someone- you're fine. Continue to lowball trades all you like, or sell things for more than they are worth. Just don't lie and say that the Dali Lama himself blessed your sword with oil and told you it was worth 20 stacks of diamond blocks and a firm handshake.
     
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  3. Mattisbak

    Mattisbak New Member

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    Hello,
    If the logs have been checked I stated to Jeff that I am sure that I could find somebody who is willing to buy my block for 5 stacks, infact I have somebody in mind. Never once did I state that the ongoing price was 5 stacks in value. After going back and forth on what he wanted to offer (clearly he was very interested in the command block and said the trade would be worth it) he ended up trading me the invisibility cloak for the command block. We made a deal, we agreed to the deal, and the deal was complete. I did not misrepresent the value, the "incredible" rarity, or the properties of that item. I gave it a value that I set to what I believed I could sell it at, since nobody had that item at the time, it was a monopoly and I had offers for much more than its current value. Also, I stated that after the trade was done and the entire conversation was told (and most likely monitored the conversation with /socialspy) that what I did was okay by a Moderator in discord who's name I will not disclose publicly but Sarchasm knows who.

    With just that little bit of information. I would like to consider that jeff's pm's get checked. As he has PERSONALLY scammed me out of a few items without me knowing the knowledge of it (oh look same situation no consequences), I am willing to bet that I am not his only victim. Infact, I dare any staff member to go on red server and openly ask if they have been scammed or consistently harassed by Jeff, the result will not shock a soul on there. On top of this, I consider myself a very helpful member of the community, I guide new players, get them to vote, encourage donations, I help older ones, and I am very kind to most others than Jeff. Jeff on the other hand has a track record of making people quit, thus taking money from the server by making them change and donate elsewhere due to his constant harassment. Heck, I even logged on (after I was harrassed and jailed for giving this guy a taste of his own medicine after we made a legitimate trade) and my entire claim was outlined in magma blocks, cobblestone, trees stacked to about 100 blocks. (wonder who placed those)

    But Hey! Jeff is innocent, doesn't break the rules, is NOT a toxic member of the community, and is just honestly a better asset than most of us honest, loyal, helpful, and favorable players that donate to keep the server running and to help enhance the community.

    Great call.
     
  4. TheSarchasm

    TheSarchasm Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    1) If you feel you've been scammed, contact a staff member so they can look in to it.
    2) No one has ever stated that Jeff is innocent. Jeff has been punished for the rules he's broken.

    You seem to be taking this very personally, when it's not a personal attack, nor is it a weighing of your value over the value of another member. No one is saying you aren't a valued member of the community. A complaint was lodged, the trade was looked over by a multitude of staff members, the logs were looked over by an admin, and a decision was reached. It was an impartial decision that had nothing to do with how good a player either party was.

    Rules apply equally to everyone.
     
  5. Cryo

    Cryo New Member

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    So to make the interpretation of this rule more concise.
    If you are claiming falsely that an Applecraft authority or a higher power verified the price of what you are trading, that is considered a scam.
     
  6. Mattisbak

    Mattisbak New Member

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    I did not say any staff member verified the price of anything. I explained to him what I had said and what the trade was, they told me that everything was okay and from his knowledge I was not doing anything wrong.

    With that being said, it is over and done with.
     
  7. MelonMarauda

    MelonMarauda Master Teapot

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    Fuck I hate this rule. Always caused issues. If you pay too much for an item it's because you're a fucking moron and A. Didn't shop around and find the best price B. Rushed into a trade because you wanted something ASAP C. Didn't ask anyone and seek advice over a period of time...

    People shouldn't just trade willy nilly or take advice on prices from strangers. The scamming rule should just cover making a deal and then fucking with the deal and killing and taking items or just taking some items without giving any in return.
     
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  8. evesnu

    evesnu New Member

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    T H I S
     
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  9. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    And who interprets the price of the item? Mods? The players who sell the item set the price for that item, rares values are always changing based on what people are selling them for. There is no base price for a rare, and if someone wants to sell something for more and someone accepts it, more people will sell it for that price - and it will eventually become that items average price. Personally, I think it is extremely unfair for mods to rollback trades that they thought were highballs, because most mods don't trade as much as active players do - and if they do trade - it's pretty much always for lower prices and cheap snags because they are staff.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  10. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    I have not seen any other minecraft server with a rule like this and I think that is for a good reason
     
  11. Raijikin

    Raijikin Maperator Staff Member Moderator

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    It doesn't take a genius to know your low balling someone when you buy a key for 2 dbs or high balling by selling it for 2 stacks of dbs. By all means try to do so if you've explained keys don't sell for that much. But as far as I'm concerned trying to do highball/lowball someone unaware is a scam. Unless your telling my distant cousin is a Nigerian prince who needs some funding to make me a millionaire is real.
     
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  12. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    yeah but those are keys. Keys have a set price because they cost 7.50 from the shop, we are talking about old rares that rarely get sold with debatable prices
     
  13. Raijikin

    Raijikin Maperator Staff Member Moderator

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    Keys are not a set price when it comes to dbs they fluctuate with how good the crate is. If we were to go with the 7.50 in the shop keys should be 48dbs. But they're often sold for 25-32. The maths doesn't add up. Rares are the same in this regard. They fluctuate with how good it is as new crates can come out with a better effect. However we still have a ballpark number of 25-32 not 48.
     
  14. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    name one crate with a key that sold for more than 30 and less than 15
     
  15. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    you can’t compare keys to rare prices - they are completely different
     
  16. Raijikin

    Raijikin Maperator Staff Member Moderator

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    That's what i'm saying. you know the ballpark figure. You said keys were static they're 7.50. Well if 10 usd is 64dbs. 1 usd is 6.4. Then 7.50 usd is 48dbs. But we know in red at least this isnt true. But you know they don't go for over 32 and less then 15. You have an idea of the cost especially since you are a rare collector. Thats our economy. So why is telling someone keys go for 2 dbs any different then telling someone that a hyperspace orb is only worth 10dbs when they are more then a stack?. That it has a static price in the shop? Why don't we use that price then or it because perhaps they fluctuate like any rare does. Prices fluctuate and that's fine but of you are intending to scam someone that's a big no.
     
  17. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    because keys have kept the same average price for legit a year - rares like the hyperspace orb prices always change
     
  18. Raijikin

    Raijikin Maperator Staff Member Moderator

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    While items and rares change prices you generally still know how much they cost and if you don't feel free to ask chat. But if you are knowingly and intentionally lowballing/highballing items that's when issues occur. When i was a player i had people tell me void walkers were only 10 dbs in pms aswell as to let them see. I can't say for certain but im willing to bet some of them were out to kill me. Luckily i joined my friends who have been playing some time and told me that was just a lie and i should never tpaccept. Personally I always ask myself if the trade was reversed would I still do it if i wanted this rare.
     
  19. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    so you are saying highballing and lowballing isn’t allowed?
     
  20. Raijikin

    Raijikin Maperator Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm saying intentionally doing so and pretending that's the normal price when you know its not , isn't allowed. In short tell them it goes for x but i sell mine for y if your gonna lowball it or highball it.
     

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