The Future of RED. (a message to Applebranch)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Wille, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Wille

    Wille Member

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    The time has come to kill the elephant in the room.

    Red has always been the middle child no one liked. It has been a recurring joke, a meme, that Red is always neglected and given less attention, and we all laugh about it. But what has been occurring recently has made this joke inappropriate and uncomfortable to make in many circles on Red.

    Red was advertised to most of us Red players as the place of PVP. Red players picked Red over Blue because it was spoken of as the place of PVP, the place of Raiding, the place of no-keepinvo. Most of us wouldn't be playing on Applecraft if it weren't for those options on Red. I know I wouldn't and wouldn't have joined at all to start with without this. That is just the type of player I am. I don't like keep-invo, and I like the possibility of PVP to always be around. I like the challenge, I like the more in-depth immersion having those mechanics adds to a server and to builds. Most of RED players are the same. not all but most. that is why they are there. that's why they chose RED. I have always felt a bit as though staff/ownership has hated and neglected RED's community because they do not see those play styles as legitimate and as 'mean', but what has been occuring recently has applified this feeling a thousand times in me and in others beyond mere jokes.

    On RED it is a meme to call BLUE players wussies and weaklings and other terms like that and it indeed is funny, but deep down I believe the playstyle of BLUE players is a legitimate perspective and desire for them and I respect it. Why can't we have reciprocation on this? I understand if people don't want their stuff taken or destroyed. If I didn't sympathize at least a bit with this I would have joined Wilderness instead of Red when I did. But our playstyles are legitimate too and take up a HUGE market in minecraft players.

    before going into detail about what has been occuring on Red, I feel as though I should paint a picture of RED and it's culture in case some Bluebies are watching:

    On Red there is no keep-invo and PVP is enabled outside of spawn and outside of claims. PVP is not enabled in claims but If you get attacked or attack someone outside of your claim boundaries you get "pvp tagged" until combat is over for like 5 seconds. If you run into your claim while still PVP tagged, you can still be killed and can still attack back. (also in titan claims titans can place flags to enable pvp at their discretion in claims). otherwise claim-killing is illegal as it should be (and is only possible with specific rare exploits like infinite firework rares, which gets you punished by staff). Because the wild warp is super large and so is the world map border (and increasingly is so), random encounters in the wild are almost unheard of. Thus the only time PVP occurs is in controlled PVP arenas such as in titan claims, and during something known as "Invis Luring".

    Invis Luring is a staple of RED and is essentially the only aspect of the server that makes it PVP. what Invis Luring is, is when a player is invisible (usually so their otherwise infamy wouldn't damage their ability to make trades in the marketplace) and waits outside of claims to battle players who walk out of their claim, either by waiting or baiting with various methods. On Red, players know full-well that if they walk outside of their claim they are in danger of being attacked. thus this practice has been historically accepted as totally fine, not breaking any rules and is a part of the culture of RED. it may ruin your name and trustworthiness if you are found to be doing such things but it has been accepted. and there are many (and increasingly many more as time goes on) methods to protect yourself and fight against these practices. previously wild warp tokens were a good method, but now chance cards, satans chalice, Sting, Many faces potion and others are sure-fire ways of preventing these practices from negatively affecting you. if you aren't careless, you can play on red without ever losing any of your hard work. claims are still safe so long as you don't walk out of them and are active atleast once every 3 months. If a player doesn't like Invis-lurers scoping out their claim, they have the option of /buy-ing Titan rank and placing no-enter flags, this has been one of the biggest draws for Titan on Red. My first day on Applecraft I remember thinking to myself that I would buy that rank eventually If I liked the server enough to stay for this specific purpose.

    Another Staple of RED's culture is Raiding. On RED, claims expire after 3 months roughly, sometimes later. when a base gets unclaimed it is allowed to be Raided, people may come and take shit and/or destroy the base to their liking. or even claim over it. It has been a very popular practice to make lists of claims that are about to expire and waiting for them. in addition to being integral to RED's culture, Raiding is also economically extremely important. Because RED has keepinvo off, rares from older crates become increasingly scarce more quickly and thus raiding expired claims is crutial for REDs economy. It is also one of the main reasons RED players /buy unlimited sethomes (also they largely buy it for invis luring). Although I would like to also mention that because unlimited sethomes is falsely advertised and isn't actually unlimited, after a certain amount of sethomes random homes get overwritten so the practice of using it for such things has it's limits.

    There have been some HUGE policy changes that have been occurring on RED very recently and have been implemented with the slight of hand. These policies have been game-changing and in my perspective big F bombs on RED, and barely announced if at all to Red players.

    For a few months there have been many moves against the practice of Invis Luring:

    -Staff will now delete sethomes of players if it is on another players claim upon request and without warning to the other player, even if that player bought unlimited sethomes, even if that player originally set the home in non-claimed territory and someones claim moved/expanded into it.
    in addition to this, players must leave someone's claim if asked, even if not breaking any rules.

    -There is a rare known as the "bunny wand" which disguises players you right-click it with into bunnies for 5 minutes. recently, because the disguise plugin has been having issues, /undisguise (or /ud) no longer works. this is intense on RED because you cannot fight players while disguise, but others can fight you. this makes you a sitting duck in pvp and makes you lose. it has taken over a month for any staff to tell me or anyone that using such item in PVP is against the rules and ban-able. I understand this will be fixed eventually however, but for a long time the bunnywand was used in pvp and ruined the practice.

    In Chat it used to display messages of when people log in and out. this was crucial to RED because it helps during Invis-Luring and also in identifying Invis Lurers if they are cowards. This totally ruined RED's PVP culture and it took me WEEKS to get a staff to even reply on the topic. I have been told that it is a bug and will be fixed also however.

    I and others have mentioned these issues and complained but have been largely ignored. When not ignored the concerns are met with an attitude that these practices(invis-luring) are seen as "harassment" by staff. which is honestly a bigger concern of mine than all of these as it is totally detached from RED's culture and history and is just plain weird and seemingly out of no-where.

    Now for the real kicker:

    Yesterday Raiding was effectively removed. You can still loot expired claims, but guess what? you cannot ask for /seens anymore unless you run a town and want to know who are active members.
    Staff will attempt to claim otherwise but this totally eliminates Raiding as a practice on RED (and not to mention gives another kick to the dead body of PVP and invis luring on RED).
    There is no way to know when a claim is close to expiring anymore, or if a claim is even active at all. even with raiding and invis-luring aside this makes other player interactions unnecessarily difficult as well, how to know when someone will be on or if someone has been on for marketplace reasons? how to know if someone's claim you want permission from to build near is active or not?
    Also I have to ask, what is the purpose of Helpers on RED if not for /seens? they can't do /mute anymore either so its not really chat that they have a purpose for. Will helpers be removed?

    So without Invis luring, and without raiding, what else is there left of RED's culture that justifies it's existence beyond the blue wall? TP-killing. That is what we have left. pathetic already but with the ways things are going myself and some others cast doubt into the lifespan of the iconic practice as well.

    AppleBranch, you have repeatedly made the statement that you intend for the RED server to stay, to not reset, and to live for eternity. My question for you is this: has this intent changed? and in the unlikelihood that it has not, what are your plans to accommodate the market of players who prefer the play-style of RED and the deceased Wilderness? With Wilderness gone RED is the last refuge and last product you have available for those kinds of minecraft players. It would be a very unwise business decision to not cater to this demographic, but If that is your choice I respect your individual right to do so. I am sure that many of us are waiting for some sort of sign on where things are going in this regard however and making a statement on it would be wise.


    Due to neglect, I won't be taking any response from mods seriously, I want a straight answer from Applebranch.
     
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  2. CountSalvatore

    CountSalvatore New Member

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    Red will have it"s future.No matter how many players that server will have.There will always be players who likes pvp-ing and adrenaline.
     
  3. Murph

    Murph Redmin Staff Member Admin

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    right where to start
    deleting set homes
    in the year that ive been on applecraft i have deleted a total of two sethomes on red.
    1st was from oolfa he was harassing a new player killing them every time they left their claim.
    2nd was more recent and while i dont remember the name it was the same situation.
    i expect you guys to kill eachother and have some fun but once it gets to what i consider to far i will step in. most cases its just a hey amybe give them a chance to grow but sometimes we espawn or delete a sethome the second one realy should not be done by mods.

    as for the leaving players claims when asked ive always just given people a bucket of lava and a flint and steel.
    as long as you follow the rules the mods cant make you do anything.
    if you have a problem with how they are treating you please let an admin know
    we cant fix a problem if you dont tell us whats going on

    as for the bunny wand once again please tell me if you catch a player abusing it like that and if i can proove it they will recieve a tempban for it.
    yes the wand was altered when the disguise pluggin changed and apple is still working on it and several other pluggins to keep purple running and prepair red for 1.14.

    the log in out thing is also part of this
    our server is running multiple versions of the game just to keep everyone together and with that happening expect issues.
    when red went live nothing worked all the pluggins were buggy af and the server crashed several times a day.
    these are the kind of issues we are trying to stop.

    harassment for me is when i see invis killers farming players that litteraly have nothing
    the kind of player thats left with wooden tools and no armor and still trying to defend themselves against rares and god gear.
    its realy not fair to kick someone when they are down.

    the changes to eseen rules on red are to stop claim camping.
    this is when every player every day askes for eseens to claim peoples shit the day they leave the server.
    your still able to ask for an eseen if your able to give a legitimate reason for it, towns are just an example of this.
    another example would be if you have a close friend that you havent seen in a while.
    believe it or not this is a change that has been asked for by both staff and players for a long time.

    helpers are here to help
    this includes welcoming and guiding new players
    and answering questions like why are my eseens gone
    also they can mute i dont know who is feeding you missinformation you should probably not take everything they say for face value

    and honestly the only true change out of your entire post is the eseens and a couple of bugs that will be addressed once bigger issues are fixed
    personaly id rather a few bugs than the server not working at all
     
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  4. Murph

    Murph Redmin Staff Member Admin

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    ive been a part of red since it went live and have payed close attention to its changes
    your welcome to ask questions and give feedback
     
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  5. SmootRot

    SmootRot New Member

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    Wille is right. I've been on red for about a year. The changes that's came down the pipe is turning alot of players ( senior players at that) away. You advertise pvp but keep implementing these outrageous new rules to stop pvp. This is red. Not blue we are here to fight an raid. Wilderness is gone alot of guys are going to leave if red continues down the path its going. @applebranch @Murph @Tunny
     
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  6. Murph

    Murph Redmin Staff Member Admin

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    did i miss something in my post what other changes are you refering to?
     
  7. Wille

    Wille Member

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    Thank you so much for stating that about the sethomes and claims murph. We've been having mods delete tons of sethomes in last few weeks. Some of them were deleted while I wasnt even online and the mods told me they did it even. Ive had multiple mods tell me that they do it if people ask. I havent been counting but Ive personally lost atleast like 6 recent sethomes in the past 2 weeks from this.

    On the topic of the bugs, I know they will be fixed, I brought them up more as examples of gamebreaking radio silence from staff very recently. Maybe they werent nessesary to bring up at this time.

    On raiding. Why there is a desire to stop claim camping?
     
  8. Murph

    Murph Redmin Staff Member Admin

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    its unfair for the players actualy out raiding
     
  9. Murph

    Murph Redmin Staff Member Admin

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    if anything worth taking is taken by people the day the claim expires it defeats the purpose of leaving your claim
    so in a way this gives you more targets to kill
     
  10. Murph

    Murph Redmin Staff Member Admin

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    as for mods removing sethomes please dm me the logs
    im aware of one instance of this happening in the last month and have spoken to the mod in question already
     
  11. Murph

    Murph Redmin Staff Member Admin

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    and ive spoken to apple about the wand and how its affecting pvp so hopefully we are able to move it up the priority list
     
  12. Wille

    Wille Member

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    I havent kept screens of the mods in question but i can try to gather a list of the sethomes i know for sure were deleted by request of the player without my consent recently. I can remember 3 already but need to log in tomorrow to get correct spellings. Smoot says he remembers another 3 or so too.
     
  13. Tunny

    Tunny Member Staff Member Admin

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    Hi, I see you have @ me, you may know that I'm not the most active on red, but I do understand red and its rules Quite well

    from the beginnings of the World, these basic rules have been kept the same

    Tp killing - Allowed
    Raiding - Allowed
    Griefing - Allowed

    This has been the same since red has begun and we intend to keep it this way, However, Over this time we have realized that reds rules have needed to be Altered In some ways. For example, the new Seen rules that have Just been introduced to promote fair play and it does this by giving all players Equal opportunity to find said Claim and loot it, instead of them Camping out the claim for months on end waiting for it to expire.
    incomplete seriousness, this was an Oversite when we first made the rules and should have been corrected Much sooner than it has been

    Id also like to state here that Raiding and griefing Are still very much so possible, I have played factions, anarchy and just well norma survival raiding servers for years now, personally I have found the practice of raiding completely possible Without the use of seen, it may make it harder yes, but impossible?
    id also Like to state as murphy has above we will rarely remove set homes Under extraneous circumstances, for example, harassment.

    Id also like to state in regards to Rule changes to the player base, there have been so few rule changes on Red world I can count them on one hand, the rules, for the most part, have stayed somewhat stagnant as a whole as we do want to keep red the same playing experience that the player base has came to love and enjoy.
    ~tunny
     
  14. Wille

    Wille Member

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    On claim camping. Is it not still raiding to go out searching for more claims to camp? That honestly takes hours as it is. Its a huge map. Without seens we gotta go running through the same thousand chunks over and over checking territory we've already explored everyday to get a find?
     
  15. Wille

    Wille Member

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    With the way raiding worked before this, players would seek out claims to raid, find claims and sethome. Do a /seen on them and if they were expired or about to expire they check up on them everyonce in a while. I would check them everytime log on after voting. Many people would do it so even if i did it everyday sometimes id still lose some. Sometimes id be checking up on a raid at the same time as others and pvp would potentially erupt. The only way i see it as being unfair is for players who dont have unlimited sethomes.
     
  16. Tunny

    Tunny Member Staff Member Admin

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    as I said it takes away the fair play element buddy, We want it to be so as any player that goes out looking for a claim to raid has a fair chance of finding one, claim camping Literally allows a player to camp there for months on end waiting for it to expire, it also makes it harder for other players to find raids. it also doesn't help when a mod/helper is asked each and every day "has tunny13s claim expired", "has tunny13s claim expired", "has tunny13s claim expired", it gets extremely annoying for us and takes the fun and effort out of raiding
     
  17. Wille

    Wille Member

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    Oh great aspect of /seens for invis killers was if that invis killer had a sethome at that base for the /seen, he could swoop in and kill the guy asking for that seen. Not to out myself but ive watched chat for that reason before while trying to invis kill people. It works well if people dont think to leave the area first before announcing they are there in chat haha
     
  18. Murph

    Murph Redmin Staff Member Admin

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    is it realy raiding if its handed to you on a platter
    earning your loot is half the fun
    as for the sethomes if you can give me prof of the mod removing it i can act on it
     
  19. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    I agree with wille’s post completely
     
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  20. Skullbane

    Skullbane Member

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    And to add onto it, items like chance cards have made it so I have never gotten loot from pvping on red before. I have legit never gotten loot from pvping. The only way to kill someone who uses a chance card is to one shot them, which is almost impossible. For a pvp world there isn’t much gain for pvp anymore.
     
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