Jailed and rare taken off of me for something that is allowed

Discussion in 'Issues & Reports' started by kian simms, Nov 15, 2020.

  1. kian simms

    kian simms New Member

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    I am _sarge1 in game and I got jailed for 1 hour on red server by Aeliny and I don't get why i should've been punished because all I did was lure someone with and adventurers compass to tp to me and i then proceeded to kill him, I was apparently jailed and got the compass taken off of me for trade scamming when I am very sure I never actually told him/her i was going to trade or make any type of deal. Personally, I don't really mind about the jailing but the adventurers compass I tpkilled for is perfectly allowed and i should have it back.
     
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  2. Lornon001

    Lornon001 Grumpy Staff Member Moderator

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    You straight-up asked them how much and were given a price. Then asking to see the item after presumably considering the price you tp killed them. Hence you were in the middle of negotiating the trade at the time you killed them. You can claim it was luring someone though this would not be accurate as you inquired as to the price of the item. Meaning that you implied intent to buy said item.
     
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  3. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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    A) A trade scam is defined as when a player (or player in conjunction with an accomplice) misleads, lies, or does not deliver on a deal with another player for goods or services in game. If you agree to a trade and then kill the player, this is considered a Trade Scam.

    Did they agree to a trade? What price did they both agree upon?
    either update the rules to include speculation of trades as being considered a trade scam or teach people NOT to TP to a person without actually agreeing to a trade.
     
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  4. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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    Person A: Has speed compass.
    Person B: How much you selling speed compass?
    Person A: X stacks
    Person B: Can I see this compass?

    Scenario 1 -
    Person B sends tpa to Person A.
    Person A asks to trade at shop world or to agree on a price to confirm that's what the TPA is for.
    Person B declines.

    Scenario 2 -
    Person B sends tpa to Person A.
    Person A accepts tpa request WITHOUT agreeing on a trade - dies. *Surprised Pikachu Face*

    Your ruling implies assumptions not actually spoken about. You assume intention to buy, yet there was literally no confirmation of such.
     
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  5. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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    What I would suggest @Lornon001 is a rewrite of the rules to include this type of tp killing that you deem against the rules.

    Something along the lines of " If you agree to a trade or enquire about a trade (without declining their price/terms) and then kill the player, this is considered a Trade Scam.

    Because according to the rules as written, their was no confirmation/agreeance to a trade. Which doesn't technically break any rules right at this moment.
     
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  6. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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    Guess confirmation from @Addeve would be pretty nice in this situation.
     
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  7. Drunk

    Drunk Head Drunk Admin

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    Lornon is right in this situation but thanks for your unasked opinion
     
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  8. aeliny

    aeliny Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    4 mods and at least 1 admin agree on the situation ~ but thanks for your input.
    Unfortunately you will not be given the rare back, Sarge.
     
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  9. Spooner684

    Spooner684 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Staying within the rules instead of trying to find a way to exploit them works too.
     
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  10. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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    Then perhaps clarify the rules to ensure you don't have to deal with this situation again? Win/Win.

    For what it's worth, I think people that do this stuff are horrible...
     
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  11. smbailey

    smbailey Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    "A trade scam is defined as when a player (or player in conjunction with an accomplice) misleads, lies, or does not deliver on a deal with another player for goods or services in game." Seems pretty clear to me. If you are using a trade or the pretense of a trade in order to kill someone it pretty clearly falls under that.

    As far as the part you are emphasizing, that is merely an example of a trade scam not the definition. Agreeing to trade and then killing the player is a trade scam, but not all trade scams involve agreeing to a trade and/or killing a player.
     
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  12. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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    I'm selling a key I just won, somebody asks to see it and tps me and kills me.. trade scamming?
     
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  13. smbailey

    smbailey Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    "Can I see the key" - Not a trade scam
    "Can I see the key before I buy it" - Trade scam
    "How much for the key? Tp to me." - Trade scam
     
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  14. grunesdragon

    grunesdragon New Member

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    I'm not involved in this, read the thread out of curiosity, but I'm personally with Mathew here. A rule based on and interpretive to assumptions players are making about each others' text, i.e. it doesn't have to have explicit proof to be judged as within or without the rules, makes this case/any potential other cases like it pretty iffy. IMO, explicit intent of wanting to buy/sell (in writing) should be necessary; OR, as Mathew suggested, reminding players/including in the rules/somehow communicating not to TP until the other person has explicitly said in chat something about their trade intention.

    It's not so much about sarge's case for me, as it is about having some natural level of concern about moderation handling. What Mathew says is reasonable, so having all the response be "well we [in power] all agree it's ok to enforce dubious rules but thanks" is a justifiable reason to be concerned.
     
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  15. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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    We can break this down to what the rule states..

    A) A trade scam is defined as when a player (or player in conjunction with an accomplice) misleads, lies, or does not deliver on a deal with another player for goods or services in game. If you agree to a trade and then kill the player, this is considered a Trade Scam.

    Did sarge mislead or lie? Technically no. They never said they wanted to see the item before they buy it. This is being assumed by mods/player that died.

    Did they agree on a trade? No.

    Now, do you want this type of interaction happening again? NO? Then please for the love of everything good on applecraft.. admit the rule is a little too vague and update it to include something along the lines of "talking to a player about an item they are selling is considered trade negotiations and tp killing is considered a trade scam until you explicitly deny the terms of the trade".

    Because this situation really isn't considered a trade unless you make assumptions, which isn't really a valid reason imo to enforce rules retrospectively.

    Please note, I'm not trying to be offensive so please don't assume that is my intent.
     
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  16. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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  17. Broccoli

    Broccoli Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Hello,
    you stated all the situations above so there shouldn't be an issue applying it to this specific one.
    This is a trade scam where player asks for a price of an item and after the price is set proceeds to ask to see it, misleading the seller to believe they want to check the item before buying it.
    The rules are vague for a reason as there is no way to make a list of all specific cases considered as offence. In case the rules were actually rewritten in this way, it would only make them hard to remember and navigate through, and would also make it easier to find loopholes.

    Hope this clears it up
    Cheers~
     
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  18. smbailey

    smbailey Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Did Sarge lie? No. Did Sarge mislead? Absolutely. Granted, I was not part of Sarge's situation, so I do not have the actual chat logs, but if what Lornon says above is correct then Sarge was using the pretense of a trade in order to kill for free stuff.

    This is an economy-based server, the scamming rules are in place because we don't want people to be afraid of trading with other players. If the killer inquires about the trade or the price, or makes an offer--using trade to mislead the seller into a tp trap/death--this is against the rules.

    Note that this is entirely reliant on the buyer's (or fake buyer's) words and actions, not on the seller's perception. If a seller posts an ad and you get them to tp to you without mention of the trade yourself, this is not a trade scam, even if they thought the tp was for a trade.

    We do not make snap judgements with these cases, any punishment for trade scam is preceded by a mod (or multiple mods) going over the chat logs for the alleged transaction/scam. In the case above, according to aeliny, there were at least 4 mods and 1 admin that reviewed the case and agreed it fell under a trade scam.

    As a final point, or job as a moderation team is not to make your life rough, and the purpose of the rules is not to make the server less fun. We do our part (and we are doing our best) to keep things fair for everyone. The rules exist to keep a semblance of order and to honestly make the server a more accommodating place. Trying to skirt as close to the rules as possible without breaking them will almost always result in crossing the line at some point.
     
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  19. yeeterspooky

    yeeterspooky Member

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    just lock the thread bruv, no need to argue
    just my two cents ig
     
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  20. Mathew762eml

    Mathew762eml Member

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    I'm actually in agreeance that I don't think this type of behaviour should be allowed, what I'm trying to point out is that the rules are a bit too vague and people (falsely) believe this is technically allowed (which it is not).


    No scamming in trades.


    A) A trade scam is defined as when a player (or player in conjunction with an accomplice) misleads, lies, or does not deliver on a deal with another player for goods or services in game. If you agree to a trade and then kill the player, this is considered a Trade Scam.


    The rules themselves highlight "If you agree to a trade" Which has led many to believe enquiring about an item and then sending a tp is (wrongly) not against the rules. It happened not too long ago with OSO2k and tepiq + multiple other people I spoke to were (wrongly) led to believe that unless an actual price is set, killing is free game.

    I'm not trying to be rude and I appreciate the fact you've taken time to respond.
     
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