(PVP) What's OP, What Is Not, with NUMBERS

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by albasant, Jan 11, 2021.

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  1. albasant

    albasant Member

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    Hello! This is an informative post to show people what does and doesn't have an important impact on the attack value of your sword. There's alot of anecdotal evidence out there and people with their own experiences trying to make sense of it all (including me), so i decided to actually sit down and spend a few hours testing to see what is and is not actually OP. There is alot of numbers and pretty boring stuff below, so if you don't care about that, just read the conclusion part in the comments.

    Now keep in mind I will not be using the damage calculation formula on the wiki, as Mojang have created the most convoluted damage calculation system I have ever seen that, even when used correctly, does not give you a particularly useful answer.

    Thankfully, the damage OUTPUT formula is simply a full or .5 number called "attack damage" or "generic.attack_damage" which measures how many points of damage you will take from that source provided you have no armour. (1 "attack damage" = 1/2 a heart)

    The first thing I tested is how much the Sharpness enchant effects the damage output of your weapon, for those who don't know, Sharpness increases the damage of your sword by +1 "attack damage" on the first level, and then +.5 "attack damage" for each level after that.

    The method I used to test this is by summoning a wolf with its base attack set to various levels. I also measured how many hits it took for the wolf to kill me from full HP and with full hunger (the stats you have after respawning after being killed) in order to differentiate similar attack ranges. (for example, even though an 11 attack wolf will deal either .5 or 1 heart when it attacks a player with protection 4 and an 11.5 attack wolf will also only deal those amounts, the wolf with 11.5 will deal 1 heart more often then the 11.0 wolf, and therefore will kill you in consistently less hits then the 11.0 attack wolf, one hit less to be exact) Please note the number of hits this wolf took to kill me is often NOT the number it will take you to kill a real player, as players do annoying things like eating, moving, and regenerating. The hits number is simply there, as I stated, to make it more clear what these numbers mean relative to eachother.

    Here are all my tests with Various common levels of sharpness on the server VS full protection 4 or protection 5 armour. HPA refers to "hearts per attack".

    *11 attack wolf (netherite sharp 5 sword damage) VS protection 4 netherite: 0.5-1.5 HPA (15 hits)
    *11 attack wolf (netherite sharp 5 sword damage) VS protection 5 netherite: 0.5-1 HPA (23 hits)
    *11.5 attack wolf (netherite sharp 6 sword damage) VS protection 4 netherite: 0.5-1.5 HPA (14 hits)
    *11.5 attack wolf (netherite sharp 6 sword damage) VS protection 5 netherite: 0.5-1 HPA (22 hits)
    *12.0 attack wolf (netherite sharp 7 sword damage) VS protection 4 netherite: 0.5-1.5 HPA (11 hits)
    *12.0 attack wolf (netherite sharp 7 sword damage) VS protection 5 netherite: 0.5-1 HPA (22 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf (netherite sharp 10 sword damage) VS protection 4 netherite: 1.0-2 HPA (10 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf (netherite sharp 10 sword damage) VS protection 5 netherite: 0.5-1 HPA (19 hits)

    Additionally, since I am adding the "Magma Saber" category- Magma Saber gives +1 attack damage or essentially 2 levels of sharpness to your weapon per armour piece the target is wearing, so in this case, it does sharpness 7 (12.0) plus 4 "attack damage" (16.0).

    *16.0 attack wolf (Magma Saber) VS protection 4 netherite: 1-2 HPA (7 hits)
    *16.0 attack wolf (Magma Saber) VS protection 5 netherite: 0.5-1 HPA (14 hits)


    So this first set of tests are without any additional factors, simply damage output vs armour, what are some things to note here? Firstly, the difference between individual sharpness levels (sharpness 6 vs sharpness 7 for example) is basically nothing, mabye if you did 100 fights you would win one you would otherwise lose because you had that extra level of sharpness. I don't recommend EVER buying a sharpness 6 book unless you get a really good deal on it, its just not worth anything. This is also very eye opening as far as just how much better protection 5 is then protection 4, I urge people to try testing this for themselves in server or otherwise because the difference really is huge, P5 is almost double as good as P4.

    The next round of testing is trying to figure out how much of a difference not wearing a helmet makes, I am testing this because most players do not bother with helmets and put rares on their heads instead. As you can see, one level of sharpness makes basically no difference, so I'm going to skip sharpness 6 and 7. I tested those against myself with no helmet, but with various rare effects to replace it. I also tested the protection enchant and its usefullness on an item that is not armour (in this case, a head)

    *11 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 1: 1.5-2.0 HPA (8 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 2: 1-1.5 HPA (10 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, regen 2: 1.5-2.0 HPA (7 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, regen 4: 1.5-2.0 HPA (wolf is not able to kill me)
    *11 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, 4 gold hearts: 1.5-2.0 HPA (10 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, protection X head: .5-1.0 HPA (17 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 1: 1.5-2.0 HPA (8 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 2: 0.5-1 HPA (13 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, regen 2: 1.5-2.0 HPA (8 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, regen 4: 1.5-2.0 HPA (wolf is not able to kill me)
    *11 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, 4 gold hearts: 1.5-2.0 HPA (10 hits)
    *11 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, protection X head: .5-1.0 HPA (17 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 1: 1.5-2.5 HPA (5 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 2: 1-1.5 HPA (8 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, regen 2: 2-2.5 HPA (6 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, regen 4: 2-2.5 HPA (wolf is not able to kill me)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, 4 gold hearts: 2-2.5 HPA (7 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, protection X head: .5-1.0 HPA (13 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 1: 1.5-2 HPA (6 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 2: 1-1.5 HPA (11 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, regen 2: 1.5-2 HPA (8 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, regen 4: 1.5-2 HPA (wolf is not able to kill me)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, 4 gold hearts: 1.5-2 HPA (8 hits)
    *13.5 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, protection X head: .5-1.0 HPA (13 hits)

    Magma Saber category- in this case Magma saber doesn't deal full damage since we don't have a helmet, so it does 12.0+3 attack damage (15.0 attack damage)

    *15 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 1: 2-2.5 HPA (5 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 2: 1.5-2 HPA (7 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, regen 2: 2.5-3 HPA (5 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, regen 4: 2.5-3 HPA (wolf is able to kill me, but only if i stand very very still)
    *15 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, 4 gold hearts: 2.5-3 HPA (7 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P4 Netherite, no helmet, Protection X head: 1-1.5 HPA (11 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 1: 1.5-2 HPA (7 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, resistance 2: 1-1.5 HPA (9 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, regen 2: 2-2.5 HPA (7 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, regen 4: 2-2.5 HPA (wolf is able to kill me, but only if i stand very very very still)
    *15 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, 4 gold hearts: 2-2.5 HPA (7 hits)
    *15 attack wolf VS P5 Netherite, no helmet, Protection X head: 1-1.5 HPA (11 hits)

    So, there are some interesting conclusions to come to here. The most obvious being that a netherite helmet, even with just protection 4, vastly outperforms mostly everything. This means I think players should be alot more careful with what they choose to sub out their helmets for in fights. The only rares I see subbing out for at this point are Melon of Truth, Dreamthisle, Speed 3 rares or above, or some sort of combo.

    There are also some very good demonstrations here about how the Protection enchant works- this confirms without a doubt that it works on non-armour items, and this also demonstrates the "protection cap" that the wiki references. Essentially, each level of protection you have on your player gives you a 4% damage modifier, but this level caps out at 80%- that means you can only really a maximum combined protection level of 20 total. This is why "P5 Netherite, no helmet, Protection X head" performs exactly the same as "P4 Netherite, no helmet, Protection X head"- the only thing the protection X head does is supplement the missing 3 points of protection and then provide 5 of its own- when you have protection 5 gear it dosen't need to supplement anything so your final conclusion is still the exact same- those extra 5 points of protection do nothing.

    More in the comments :)
     
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  2. albasant

    albasant Member

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    Theres one final thing I want to emphasise here, and that is how shockingly important the Strength potion effect is to your damage output. To those unfamiliar with how Strength works, each level of Strength gives you +3 "attack damage"- or roughly 6 levels of sharpness. This means, funnily enough, that if you have Strength 1 and no sharpness on your sword, you have a higher damage output then you would if you had no Strength and Sharpness 5. That being said, the reason Strength is so important is because it dosen't make you choose, you get it for free- and by "free" I mean a Strength 2 potion, which is basically free. A strength 2 potion boosts your attack by 6 (or 12 levels of sharpness). I'm not going to go over all the Strength statistics here, but here are some key ones that highlight just how much of a difference Strength makes.

    *17 attack wolf (Sharp 5 Netherite w/Strength 2) VS Full P4 Netherite: 1.5-2.0 HPA (7 hits)
    *17 attack wolf (Sharp 5 Netherite w/Strength 2) VS Full P5 Netherite: 1.0-1.5 HPA (12 hits)
    *18 attack wolf (Sharp 7 Netherite w/Strength 2) VS Full P4 Netherite: 1.5-2.0 HPA (6 hits)
    *18 attack wolf (Sharp 7 Netherite w/Strength 2) VS Full P5 Netherite: 1.0-1.5 HPA (11 hits)
    *19 attack wolf (Sharp 10 Netherite w/Strength 2) VS Full P4 Netherite: 2.0-2.5 HPA (6 hits)
    *19 attack wolf (Sharp 10 Netherite w/Strength 2) VS Full P5 Netherite: 1-1.5 HPA (10 hits)
    *22 attack wolf (Magma Saber w/Strength 2) VS Full P4 Netherite: 2.0-2.5 HPA (5 hits)
    *22 attack wolf (Magma Saber w/Strength 2) VS Full P5 Netherite: 1-1.5 HPA (8 hits)

    Using Strength 2 potions basically cuts the amount of hits you need to kill someone in half.

    *24.0 attack wolf (Magma Saber with Strength 3) VS Full P4 Netherite, protection V head, 4 golden hearts:
    3.5-4.5 HPA (4 hits)


    CONCLUSIONS:
    As much as people talk about sharpness 6 vs 7 vs 10 or whatever, it really doesn't make much of a difference. The numbers show that the damage output is basically the same, and though you may very well win a few extra fights every once in a while, it's really not what is going to make a sword OP or not OP.
    In a similar vein, its surprising how MUCH of a difference protection 5 vs protection 4 makes, in most scenarios it gives you almost double the survivability- this isin't due to netherite either, as netherite's damage reduction is not notable at all compared to diamond. This is an clearly an issue with protection 5- I think that if protection 5 did not exist, swords like Magma Saber would not be necessary. However the damage output of non Magma-Saber swords against P5 is laughable, so they are. Players around now don't remember the days when nobody could kill eachother because all the defensive stuff was so broken and all the weapons (Especially on purple and red) sucked.

    Going forwards I think more swords with comparable damage outputs to Magma Saber is a good idea, just to increase diversity among players. I especially like any sword that does not deal that damage directly, but in some other quirky way. We don't need a better Magma Saber, we just need more of them.

    A good example of how the power of offensive rares has adjusted is that I don't think Dreamthisle is particularly overpowered anymore- after having tested with the absorbtion effect at length and considering how much more powerful and consistent weapons have gotten, that rare will pretty much never have the same effect as it did before and you WILL die to people with Saber and Strength.

    Dreamthisle is still probably the best helmet, but if your opponent is equally powered, you wont find yourself being unkillable. This extends in general to the rest of the PVP ecosystem. The issue is not that weapons do not deal enough damage, if both players stood still and hit eachother for a minute, there isin't a rare on the server that would stop one of them from dying- the issue is that players DON'T stand still and that they move around, I would say going forwards the path to improving the offence vs defence balance is not making stronger weapons, but handycapping people's speed effects.
    That all being said, I actually think the numbers show that if both players have similarly powerful gear, the PVP ecosystem is actually in a good place right now, basically the only item that I see as being insurmountable is Melon of Truth, and like... 3 people on one world have that. Not a big deal of you ask me.

    I hope you learned something and/or enjoyed reading my random obsession with PVP balance, if you have a question I'm on discord u can @ me there :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2021
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  3. tacocatermelon

    tacocatermelon Member

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    so much math... and word... brain iz ow
     
  4. Spooks

    Spooks Member

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    Alb i didnt read this but ur cute
     
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  5. fifjfjrhds

    fifjfjrhds Active Member

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    ur cuter <3
     
  6. tacocatermelon

    tacocatermelon Member

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    :eyes:
     

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